COMMISSIONER LANNI:   I have a question. I thought your oral testimony was quite meaningful, and I support most of what you said. You did not refer much in the oral testimony, or if I listened correctly at all to illegal gambling. Yet, in your written testimony you have reference to illegal gambling.

With the studies and the treatment that you've been involved in, to what degree have you been -- do you find people who have the problems that they have and that you've dealt with are products of illegal gaming as compared to legal gaming?

DOCTOR LORENZ:   Probably 20, 25 percent might be illegal gambling, and typically those are sports bettors, and they tend to be some of our younger addicts. Most of our residential patients, the most acutely disturbed tend to be casino gamblers first, at a lesser level the race track gamblers, with a long history of gambling. But, really, we see all types of gambling, whether it's lottery addicts, Keno addicts, Bingo addicts, the devastation is the same and the contributing factors are the same.

COMMISSIONER LANNI:   A couple of follow-ups, if I may. I think we've established the fact that we probably haven't met. Do you know a number of people in the gaming industry?

DOCTOR LORENZ:   Yes, I do.

COMMISSIONER LANNI:   You do, executives.

DOCTOR LORENZ:   I know some.

COMMISSIONER LANNI:   You obviously have a very low opinion of them, in looking at your second to last paragraph in your written response, you indicate that we are totally lacking in personal responsibility and integrity. I'm offended by that, we've never met, but if you choose to believe that some 700,000 people in this country are lacking in integrity and responsibility you have not done a very good study.

DOCTOR LORENZ:   I am talking about the response to pathological gambling, which has been virtually nil. Over the many years, the 20-25 years that we have spoken with casino personnel, with lottery personnel, as well as personnel from other gambling venues.

COMMISSIONER LANNI:   You also refer to the fact that we are totally lacking in social consciousness and the gaming industries are enemies, the industry is an enemy, not an ally.

DOCTOR LORENZ:   That's right, I totally believe that, and that's --

COMMISSIONER LANNI: You also --

DOCTOR LORENZ:   -- based on 25 years of experience. The help that has been given to pathological gamblers, either for employees of the industry or for non-employees, is minimal. Again, we have had any number of employees, either from casinos or state lotteries, who do not have health insurance, who do not get the support from the industry for the treatment that they need.

COMMISSIONER LANNI:   You also indicated here that a preponderance of the casino personnel represent this Commission, can you tell me how five of the people on this Commission represent the casino industry?

DOCTOR LORENZ:   I see no representative here from the pathological gambling industry. I see three of them directly connected, directly or indirectly connected, which would be you, and Mr. Bible and Mr. Wilhelm.

COMMISSIONER LANNI:   Yes. You indicated, I think also, that people who have pathological problems are very good with numbers. I don't think you are very good with numbers, I can tell you that, pathological or not, and there's no reference to that. Maybe your oral word is more logical than your written word.

And, I'm very offended by your second to last paragraph. It's not substantiated.

DOCTOR LORENZ:   Quite frankly, I'm quite good with numbers. As a matter of fact, I majored in banking before I got into the mental health field.

COMMISSIONER LANNI:  I hope the bank did a little bit more successfully in its operation than you did in your written word.

DOCTOR LORENZ:   They did very well, thank you.

COMMISSIONER LANNI:   Good, I'm glad they did, but I'm offended by that, it lacks credibility, and it really -- it's a sad thing, because you made a wonderful oral presentation. Most of your letter was quite reasonable, and, as I said, I agree with most of it, but when you come to the second to last paragraph and attack an entire industry, you lose credibility with me.

DOCTOR LORENZ:   Mr. Lanni, we have spoken with state lottery directors, casino personnel, other gambling venues for many years. How much money is allocated for pathological gambling, for treatment, for prevention, for research? I think that answers your question.

COMMISSIONER LANNI:   Doctor, I shan't get into an issue of discussing things with you, but that is a definite non-sequitur.